Comments on: The ESV, HCSB and Life from Isaiah 1 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/ Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:35:58 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Andy http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-734 Andy Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:41:19 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-734 I own the ESV Study Bible and the HCSB Apologetics Study Bible. As far as translation goes, I actually prefer the slightly archaic forms in the ESV, as they lend a somewhat poetic quality. (For similar reasons, I have always been fond of the NKJV.) Both are stellar translations, though. I own the ESV Study Bible and the HCSB Apologetics Study Bible. As far as translation goes, I actually prefer the slightly archaic forms in the ESV, as they lend a somewhat poetic quality. (For similar reasons, I have always been fond of the NKJV.) Both are stellar translations, though.

]]> By: nimrodxi http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-477 nimrodxi Sun, 16 Mar 2008 00:03:57 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-477 Was there even a people or language group that could be referred to as "Arab" during the period of Isaiah/Jeremiah? Was there even a people or language group that could be referred to as “Arab” during the period of Isaiah/Jeremiah?

]]> By: Jay http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-466 Jay Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:23:57 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-466 I have a question about the HCSB. I was reading Isa chapter 13 the other day and noticed something strange. In verse 20, This word H6163 ערבי / ערבי was translated Nomad. I checked all the other versions I own, KJV, NIV, NSAB and all of these translated it as Arabian or some derivative. I then checked that this word occurs 9 times in the Old Testament. In the KJV all 9 times this is translated either as Arabian or Arabians. In the HCSB seven out of the nine it is translated some derivative of arab, but not in Isa or Jer 3:2. This may not seem like a big deal and I may very well be missing something, but if the word is actually arabian instead of nomad this changes the meaning of the phrophecy drastically. The word arabian may be giving the verse locality. Ie the literal destruction of Babylon, whereas nomad could be anywhere (Spiritual Babylon). Am I missing something? I have a question about the HCSB. I was reading Isa chapter 13 the other day and noticed something strange. In verse 20,
This word
H6163
ערבי / ערבי
was translated Nomad. I checked all the other versions I own, KJV, NIV, NSAB and all of these translated it as Arabian or some derivative. I then checked that this word occurs 9 times in the Old Testament. In the KJV all 9 times this is translated either as Arabian or Arabians. In the HCSB seven out of the nine it is translated some derivative of arab, but not in Isa or Jer 3:2. This may not seem like a big deal and I may very well be missing something, but if the word is actually arabian instead of nomad this changes the meaning of the phrophecy drastically. The word arabian may be giving the verse locality. Ie the literal destruction of Babylon, whereas nomad could be anywhere (Spiritual Babylon). Am I missing something?

]]> By: Will http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-340 Will Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:39:39 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-340 Rick, thank you for clarifying. One of the downsides of emailing, blogging, etc. is the inability to communicate non-verbally. I understand your position, and I think we're definitely in agreement that sometimes the added words are unnecessary. I think the bigger issue for me is the whole italics/brackets thing. I know that it is often necessary to use more than one English word to translate one Greek word. Or, to put it another way, a Greek sentence containing only 9 words may take more than a dozen English words to convey accurately what the Greek is trying to convey. My philosophy is, why put brackets or italics in at all? The "supplied" words are a normal part of translation from any one language into another. Oh well. I guess until I become the General Editor, italics and brackets will stay. :) By the way, Rick, I enjoyed meeting your family on your website. Thanks for the link. Rick, thank you for clarifying. One of the downsides of emailing, blogging, etc. is the inability to communicate non-verbally. I understand your position, and I think we’re definitely in agreement that sometimes the added words are unnecessary.

I think the bigger issue for me is the whole italics/brackets thing. I know that it is often necessary to use more than one English word to translate one Greek word. Or, to put it another way, a Greek sentence containing only 9 words may take more than a dozen English words to convey accurately what the Greek is trying to convey. My philosophy is, why put brackets or italics in at all? The “supplied” words are a normal part of translation from any one language into another.

Oh well. I guess until I become the General Editor, italics and brackets will stay. :)

By the way, Rick, I enjoyed meeting your family on your website. Thanks for the link.

]]> By: Rick Martinez http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-338 Rick Martinez Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:44:32 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-338 By the way, I am an IMB missionary in Peru. If any would like to check out our website and ministry the link is: www.byhisgrace.cc/martinez By the way, I am an IMB missionary in Peru. If any would like to check out our website and ministry the link is:

http://www.byhisgrace.cc/martinez

]]> By: Rick Martinez http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-337 Rick Martinez Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:42:22 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-337 Will, because you do not know me personally you couldn't know that I can be sarcastic at times. I did not mean to offend and for that I apologize to you or any translators who may ever read these discussions. I guess I just try to figure out motivations of adding text to the Bible when it isn't necessary. There are plenty of places where words have been added that have been appropriate. But you even said it yourself about Jeremiah 1:13, "although the meaning would probably still be pretty clear without them". And that is my point, there are many places where the meaning is perfectly clear without the added text. To be honest with you, I do not do much translation of my own (despite doing a biblical language concentration for most of my time in seminary!). I'm not posting as a language scholar but as someone who believes that a translation is best when the least amount of words are added while still maintaining a clear and understandable translation. I'm glad to read that there will be a CSB revision for 2009. It appears that the editors are actually listening to what has hopefully been constructive criticism from owners of the CSB such as myself. Thanks for being one of the few that are paying to attention to the CSB on the net. God bless, Rick Will, because you do not know me personally you couldn’t know that I can be sarcastic at times. I did not mean to offend and for that I apologize to you or any translators who may ever read these discussions.

I guess I just try to figure out motivations of adding text to the Bible when it isn’t necessary. There are plenty of places where words have been added that have been appropriate. But you even said it yourself about Jeremiah 1:13, “although the meaning would probably still be pretty clear without them”. And that is my point, there are many places where the meaning is perfectly clear without the added text.

To be honest with you, I do not do much translation of my own (despite doing a biblical language concentration for most of my time in seminary!). I’m not posting as a language scholar but as someone who believes that a translation is best when the least amount of words are added while still maintaining a clear and understandable translation.

I’m glad to read that there will be a CSB revision for 2009. It appears that the editors are actually listening to what has hopefully been constructive criticism from owners of the CSB such as myself. Thanks for being one of the few that are paying to attention to the CSB on the net.

God bless,

Rick

]]> By: Will http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-294 Will Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:33:53 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-294 Rick, thanks for stopping by. I would agree that sometimes the "additions" are unnecessary. On the other hand, though, I'm not sure (1) that this is a problem merely with the HCSB, or (2) that the "additions" are really additions. Certainly there may be certain words that do not have an equivalent word in the original text, but their presence is clearly implied in the original in a way that makes it appropriate to include the implied word(s) in the translation. In your present example from Jeremiah 1:13, I would contend that the added words do help clarify the meaning, although the meaning would probably still be pretty clear without them. That does not mean, necessarily, that every situation is like that. I would really take issue, though, with your assertion that the words were added so that the translators could brag about them to their grandchildren. Quite frankly, I think that's an irresponsible attack on the translator's motives and one you should not have made. My own opinion is that the words that were supplied for clarity should not even be emphasized at all (italics, brackets, etc.). That's the nature of translation. Rick, just out of curiosity, do you do much translation of your own? I'm curious how you would handle the translation of passages that were clear to a Greek/Hebrew speaking audience that would be unclear to an English speaking audience without supplying the implied words. Rick, thanks for stopping by. I would agree that sometimes the “additions” are unnecessary. On the other hand, though, I’m not sure (1) that this is a problem merely with the HCSB, or (2) that the “additions” are really additions. Certainly there may be certain words that do not have an equivalent word in the original text, but their presence is clearly implied in the original in a way that makes it appropriate to include the implied word(s) in the translation.

In your present example from Jeremiah 1:13, I would contend that the added words do help clarify the meaning, although the meaning would probably still be pretty clear without them. That does not mean, necessarily, that every situation is like that.

I would really take issue, though, with your assertion that the words were added so that the translators could brag about them to their grandchildren. Quite frankly, I think that’s an irresponsible attack on the translator’s motives and one you should not have made.

My own opinion is that the words that were supplied for clarity should not even be emphasized at all (italics, brackets, etc.). That’s the nature of translation.

Rick, just out of curiosity, do you do much translation of your own? I’m curious how you would handle the translation of passages that were clear to a Greek/Hebrew speaking audience that would be unclear to an English speaking audience without supplying the implied words.

]]> By: Rick Martinez http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-292 Rick Martinez Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:37:48 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-292 I just want to make another observation as to why the CSB drives me crazy sometimes. This morning I was reading in Jeremiah 1:13b "And I replied, 'I see a boiling pot, its mouth tilted from the north [to the south].' Now why was it necessary to provide "to the south"? It does not really clarify anything and adds nothing to the text except the thoughts of the translator. I checked other versions and none of the do this. I sometimes wonder if the tranlsators of the CSB added so many extra words in the text to be able to tell their grandchildren, "Look, right there, see those words 'to the south', those are my words! My words in the Holy Bible! See that grandson, your grandad is a great man! There are so many more examples like this... I just want to make another observation as to why the CSB drives me crazy sometimes. This morning I was reading in Jeremiah 1:13b “And I replied, ‘I see a boiling pot, its mouth tilted from the north [to the south].’

Now why was it necessary to provide “to the south”? It does not really clarify anything and adds nothing to the text except the thoughts of the translator. I checked other versions and none of the do this.

I sometimes wonder if the tranlsators of the CSB added so many extra words in the text to be able to tell their grandchildren, “Look, right there, see those words ‘to the south’, those are my words! My words in the Holy Bible! See that grandson, your grandad is a great man!

There are so many more examples like this…

]]> By: Will http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-273 Will Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:25:40 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-273 Daniel, I'm glad you've made the switch. I've certainly been pleased with it myself. I had one of the inexpensive paperbacks, but now I use a nice slim version I received as a gift. The fresh translation has been great. I hope you continue to enjoy it. ElShaddai, thank you so much for visiting and for your kind words on your site. I enjoyed stopping by your site and hope to read frequently. You've just been added to my Google Reader (and that's a big deal for me)! Come back any time. Daniel, I’m glad you’ve made the switch. I’ve certainly been pleased with it myself. I had one of the inexpensive paperbacks, but now I use a nice slim version I received as a gift. The fresh translation has been great. I hope you continue to enjoy it.

ElShaddai, thank you so much for visiting and for your kind words on your site. I enjoyed stopping by your site and hope to read frequently. You’ve just been added to my Google Reader (and that’s a big deal for me)! Come back any time.

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-270 ElShaddai Edwards Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:00:01 +0000 http://anwoth.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/the-esv-hcsb-and-life-from-isaiah-1/#comment-270 Likewise, I've just run across your blog from the comments on This Lamp. I've written about <a href="http://heissufficient.net/2007/07/05/wretched-translations-esv-vs-hcsb-romans-713-25/" rel="nofollow">the ESV/HCSB comparison</a> myself and do prefer the HCSB as well. I've enjoyed reading your other ESV/HCSB posts - thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm looking forward to reading your blog in more detail! Likewise, I’ve just run across your blog from the comments on This Lamp. I’ve written about the ESV/HCSB comparison myself and do prefer the HCSB as well. I’ve enjoyed reading your other ESV/HCSB posts – thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I’m looking forward to reading your blog in more detail!

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